FROM JCB:

Pilgrim: Who out there is even claiming 7th stage Realization except Adi Da? No one that I know of. Give me a name, and we'll give the guy a call.

Adi Da basically invented the 7th stage realization, so it's not surprising that no one else is claiming it. Weirdly, a lot of people "claim" nothing, but just yam what they yam (Popeye samadhi), and devotees (possibly the more political minded ones) do the claiming for them. The pretty good question here is who claims/acknowledges what, anyway... and for whose sake is the claim.

For example, I think Neem Karoli Baba could well have had the same realization as Adi Da, but using Pilgrim's strict criteria for evaluating these matters (you have to have met the guru and know him, as Pilgrim does his guru), who will ever know? By these criteria, and absent siddhi, Adidams can't claim a greater realization for Adi Da unless they are just parroting.

But anyway, at least two ex-devotees of Adi Da are "claiming" the seventh stage about as explicitly as one can. Why they're claiming anything at all a question only they can answer, but I think they're using terminology essentially the same as that applied to the "seventh stage" because they're very familiar with such terminology, and find it comfortable in expressing what they want to express. (The contrast between the two pages is interesting too; that's all the commentary I will make for now.)

Phil Servedio

Saniel Bonder

Re-quoting Pilgrim: Give me a name, and we'll give the guy a call.

These folks have been fairly public about their understanding for a long time now -- is your (Pilgrim's) question a rhetorical one, or is there any real desire to communicate? Or maybe, perhaps unlike myself, the parties concerned have 100% banished, suppressed, or transcended any defensive reason to communicate. God forbid there should be a simple relational reason. "God" can be a real dick that way, I guess. Actually, there are better relational avenues all around.... Q.E. frickin' D.

JCB

FROM Elias:

Pilgrim claimed that Daists are "Enlightened" by the fact of Satsang with the Guru, which means basically that they are in the room with the Big Lightbulb.

Meanwhile they (and Frank) have taken the traditional view of Enlightenment and sealed it inside this impenetrable Wall of Divinity with Frank's murti picture on it...

To rant even further, they have taken God and locked "Him" away on an island in the Pacific Ocean, where only those who spend face-time with him can "truly know Him". So long to the Holy Spirit, so long to meditation, so long to samadhi, so long to everybody everywhere who has felt the intimate touch of God's unqualified, unconditioned, unmodified, faceless & nameless trans-personal Presence. So long to the eureka shout of "I AM!" of all the divine children yet to be born, so long to Ramakrishnas of the future...

The idea that you can't know God as Guru (or even get a glimpse of this wonder) unless you sign spiritual contracts and write checks for four years is pure cultism, cultism in the extreme.

End of yada.

E

FROM Bud:

Pilgrim,

First, I don't want to offend you or your belief system personally. If Da is what gives you what you are looking for, great. But, from my reading, Da only says what has been said for thousands of years by many other traditions. I don't know how well read you are but, how can you not see the parallels?

Mahayana teaches that Buddha is actually the eternal power of the Dharma Body. This body is transcendent and universal. It is the pure consciousness that is the ground of all. All beings are in the possession of the Dharma Body or, Buddhahood, and can realize it through many paths. Paths such as meditation, yogic practices, devotion, and worship.

The message of the Bhagavad Gita is to realize that Krishna is all things and performs all actions. Krishna is the knower of the field. The field is all things in the natural universe, known and unknown. Although Krishna is all things, his true unchanging Self is the knower of all things. To recognize the difference between the field and the knower of the field is to become realized. Krishna states that bhakti is the easiest path to Him. Through bhakti, even though one my worship other gods they are actually worshipping Him, since he is all that is, or is not.

The pratybhijnahridayam says that the whole universe is the play of Chiti:

There is only one Self, the conscious Self, Lord Shiva; nothing else exists.

It seems to me they're all saying the same thing. Da isn't the only one who has experienced the recognition of the eternal Self of all.

Again, no offense Pilgrim, but do you read anything other than Adidam literature? Have you ever been around another authentic realized being?

Bud

FROM Elias:

Part of the problem of discussing the exquisite differences between Buddhist, Hindu and the so-called "7th Stage Realization" is that, whether as egos or as realizers, we have but two things to go on -- our own subjective spiritual perceptions and/or notions, and the statements (however logical & powerful) of those we honor as masters of these traditions.

Ultimately, then, Pilgrim's certainty about the supremacy of "7th stage Realization" is a matter of his personal belief and the beliefs of the culture of Adidam. Which is fine, as far as it goes.

But Bud and I and many others have another view, which is that Frank's "7th stage argument" has not so far convinced us that it is superior or transcendent to the realizations of previous times or to the realizations of living traditions, Buddhism being a prime example. When Buddhists speak about "the eternal omnipresence of the compassionate Buddha-mind throughout the past, present, and future" they are not talking about jnani samadhi, not by a long shot. Buddhist masters would (and do) find Frank's relativization of Buddhist teachings laughable. I can see where you Daists need to relativize Buddhist realizations to enhance the apotheosis of your Adept, but your descriptions of the traditions remain inherently flawed and untrue. (Curiously enough Frank calls himself a Buddha, thus submitting himself to the Buddhist tradition and lineage...and vows of Buddhism)

Now, arguments aside, you might argue that the "transmission" of the master is enough to convince anyone of the difference between what Frank teaches and what Buddha and Krishna taught. But I've tested that, and was not convinced. Like you, Pilgrim, I saw "who He is"... To quote your words, as if my own---

I went straight to Him with unrelenting intent to find out directly Who He was, and lo and behold, He Revealed Himself to me, directly, unmistakably, not just beyond any doubt, but beyond the mind itself, beyond the body, beyond attention, beyond mere emotion, beyond the heart on the right, beyond everything. He gave me the Divine "Glimpse" of His own seventh stage Realization, and showed me that the process of that Realization was entirely about "Him." And since then I have had all kinds of ordinary troubles in my life, and difficulties with practice, with people, with the community, with this forum, with anything you could name, even with Adi Da's external words and actions, but I've never had any doubt about Adi Da's Realization. I've actually seen it, directly, without intermediary, belief, preconception, or anything else. I know Who He is.

However, unlike you, having seen "Who He is" I never made the leap to the idea that I must glorify or worship the Adept. I don't worship or glorify Adepts. I don't worship Christ, I don't worship Buddha, I don't worship Krishna, I don't worship Meher Baba, I don't even worship the Beatles... ;-)

When young Franklin showed me his Understanding, I recognized it as Truth, beyond the mind, beyond the heart, beyond beyond... I never had an urge (or problem) with feeling worshipful, or devotional, or "lesser", or whatever other duality of self-and-Person people tend to feel when they get the transmission. In fact, I could never understand why people fell into that kind of bhakti attitude, except that it was a means of protecting themselves from the truth of themselves. (Bhakti is like an inter-species adaptation such as wolves made, when they became domesticated... except that we are all "sons of the same Father"!)

You see, when the "Glimpse" is given, and truly received, everything is open, and nothing is any longer difficult. You don't get the "Glimpse" and then close down again. (Well, speak for yourself.) There is this continuum of realization, and that's it. Truth is Truth and no adept can be found to remain stationed for all eternity between the realizer and the realization. (And, I might add, as the adept ceases to exist, so does the realizer-initiate cease to exist, as a separate "identity". What's left? You tell me, Bodhi.)

So...my criticism of Adi Da and of Adidam is not anything about the realization, which in the beginning was obvious, unobstructed, and undeniable... It is, as I have said in other places, with the free choices the adept made after realization. And you know, God and God's agents (and Realized Beings) do make mistakes. What's Frank's mistake? ...As others have said, Buddha enlightens by pointing to the mind. Frank enlightens by pointing to his own finger. C'est la vie!

;-) Elias the Mindless Nonexistent

FROM Sri Bob (Da's Master):

Siddhartha wrote: Could you please describe Your Realization. Could you also describe the 9th stage, and your work with Adi Da? Why did you instruct Frankie to say those things? Is Your work with him a failure. Please elaborate.

Dear Siddhartha:

I sense your questions come from a space of deep knowing and loving; nevertheless, my legal department has severely limited my responses. Your questions are as fair as they are vexing, so I'll take them one-ness at a time. As Ken Wilber is fond of saying, 'Oneness is not mush!' My realization has moved through many stages, one or two of them enjoyable. My major realizations were/are of my essential co-identity with All That Is--and of the always-isness of mostly-forever. My other critical realization relates to Microsoft stock, great blocks of which I purchased about a decade ago. Just so.

As you know, Sid, the 8th stage is beyond formlessness, beyond timelessness, Chicago killed the damn Mormons!, beyond Francisco's chilidog cart on Slauson Ave, go Michael, just so! Er . . . where was I?

Ah, yes: By all rational accounts, I should be dismayed by the muck my acolyte Daddy-Da has made of my teachings, but such is not the case. Well, maybe a little. Okay, the little poop pisses me off. My work with Da on the 8th plane is one of constant co-awareness--of which there is very little so far. Now, if you believe this is an attempt to avoid responsibility for my acolyte's offenses, then we are communicating very well indeed. Just so.

As you know, the 7th stage revelation leads to assumptions of, to use the technical term, Megalomaniacal Divinity. At this stage there is an obsessional tendency to seek followers, make countless parenthetical comments and unnecessarily capitalize words. The major 7th stage realization is that you know (as Sioux is prone to tirelessly drone) you just know you create all of reality--you're IT, babe!--but you don't have the 8th stage realization that, son of a gun, every other consciousness creates their own reality too. This 8th stage realization is a bummer--it is so damn deflating after thinking you were the One and Only Divine Incarnation of Alllllll Tiiime! I hit the bottle for a week after my 8th stage realization, and even of late I am unable to face the day without a double shot of V.O.

But enough about me, Sid. Where did you get the idea that I told Adi da to "say those things."? I ask you, what things? You soul does not wear the bony finger of blame well, son. Blame is projection, a denial of responsibility. Anyways, I am advised by attorneys from the Johannie Bobist Legal Defense Fund that your question lacks actionable specificity. Whatever the hell that means. Anyway, own your own projections before you expect Adi Da to. Besides, what things do you say he said? Please elaborate.

And now, the last sucker-punch from your terminal, Sid. Is my work with Adi Da a failure? It would seem your question is an obvious trap (a point emphasized by my attorneys). Let's just say that some nuts are harder to crack than others, and leave it at that. Remember, from the level I view him, a level in which divine perfection is seen in all arising conditions, Da's is as good a path as any to I AM. Well almost as good. Okay, the guy could use a refresher course. I am shamed. In the 9th stage, we discover how much we have to be modest about.

Namaste

Sri Bob, 8th (going on 9th) Stage Adept, Avatar, World Magus & El Guru Supremo

FROM Sioux Marshman:

Whoa! The Great Adi Da Debate! I love it. Juicy thanks to all the participants. Great work. Special kudos to Pilgrim for taking the best shots from Adi's hoard of detractors, then coming back for more--often with grace and wit, occasionally with caustic grit. Cheers also to Elias and Jaguar and JCB, who have carried the heavy water for the anti-Da contingent. And a sly thanks to Tina and Colette for stepping in during the clenches to remind us we're supposed to be adults.

Anyways, I want to put in my two cents. Make that a quarter. I'm the one who believes we create our own reality through the miraculous combination of belief, imagination and will. Okay, I hear you saying, "Here we go again. Somebody call the Psychiatric Eval Team." Okay, put me in 72 hour hold.

But what if? What if Adi Da, Pilgrim, Elias, you, me--all of us--are creating our own realities? What if inherent in consciousness is both the unquenchable urge to create and the infinite power to do so?

Okay, so how would this all work?

For Adi Da, and any who choose to believe him, he is God Incarnate. His believers (followers) have the incredible joy and egoic thrill of being in the company of the Great One, the most brilliant adept ever to incarnate on earth. Wouldn't you become an Adidamista if you only could believe his pitch? What an ultimate in-crowd! Wow! What a rush! What a great experience to create! (Must be why there are so many gurus riding the circuit these days . . . )

For Elias et al, and those who believe likewise, Adi Da is a threat, a sexual predator, a walking talking category error. For them, Adi Da is merely Franklin Jones in drag--spiritual adept and master head tripper. He is a pathological trickster, an enslaver of wills, a black hole that sucks unsuspecting spiritual neophytes into the blazing hell of culthood. Gulp.

As for me, I create my own reality (yes, I know, in league with my un/sub/super conscious), so for me, everyone and everything I see is God/Divine/All That Is. Wow! Again, what a rush! I don't have to go anywhere to meet God, don't have to eat a special diet, don't have to tithe my earnings, don't have to meet anybody else's weird codes or laws, don't have to give up my will.

Okay, that's cheating a bit. Giving up your will to Adi Da is a fundamental impossibility, a game of let's pretend, of make-believe. To be a victim, you have to pretend you don't create your own reality. To be an Adidamista, you have to pretend you don't create your own reality. Hmmm, try this: Adidamista = victim. (That can't be right, can it?)

Okay, forget the we create reality bit. Now, I have had limited transpersonal experiences, but one particularly enjoyable 'state' is probably familiar to forum participants: Reality as divine perfection. In this state, I can turn my attention to any 'problem'--personal to social, profane to sacred--and each looks not problematic after all, but exquisitely perfect.

From this state, the words and postures of those engaged in the Adidam debate--pro-Da, anti-da, agnostic, sitting on the fence, etc.--are perfect expressions of All That Is. Truth, some say, is in the mosaic of all opinions. I suspect that this is the case here.

Okay, from yet another perspective: If Adi Da is who he claims to be, then both Pilgrim and Elias are doing Adi Da's work. How so? Because Adi Da is Elias. Pilgrim, JCB, Dan, s~Z, Jaguar, etc. are all on the same team--the only team--Adi Da. How could it be otherwise? God attacks, defends, corrects and (mostly) ignores Himself. if Adi Da is who he claims he is.

As to me, could I buy in? Maybe, but probably not--no more than I'll completely buy in to Ken Wilber's models, Stan Groff's models, Rush Limbaugh's models of reality, etc. In the affairs of spirit, it seems to me that Adi Da's Godself speaks with great authority. But when it comes to temporal affairs, the man Frank Jones takes center stage--with all of the distortion of truth that human existence presupposes. To the degree that All That Is is localizable in any one thing (e.g. Adi Da's plump dumpling of a physical body), it is no longer, it can be no longer, All That Is.

So there.